Neri: 0:04

Shalom and welcome to the Israel Policy Pod. I'm Neri Zilber, a journalist based in Tel Aviv, and a policy advisor to Israel Policy Forum. We're going to focus on domestic Israeli politics this week as we enter 2026 and an election year. And to start us off, we'll be talking with Barak Herskowitz, who is an Israeli political analyst and media strategist, a former advisor to Naftali Bennett when he was Prime Minister of Israel, and the current host of the Hebrew language podcast called Unpopular Opinion. I've known Barak for many years, from his time as a young and prominent Likud Party activist. He was what I referred to back then as my Likud whisperer. So I chatted with Barak about his own personal and political journey and why he ultimately broke with Bibi Netanyahu's Likud Party, the chances of his former boss Naftali Bennett beating Netanyahu in the upcoming election, and why exactly did he, Barak, quit working for TikTok? This was a very cool conversation from the point of view of the Israeli anti-Netanyahu right. But first, a few thoughts from me. So, FYI, I'm recording this intro on Monday, January 12th, 2026, and the interview with Barak we did last night, Sunday night. But the big news still is the unrest and protests in Iran now into their third week. For anyone interested in understanding how Iran got to this very low point and the very real dilemmas for the regime in Tehran, both at home and abroad, i.e., Donald Trump and his continued threats to intervene in what's happening in Iran. Do check out our podcast from last week, which was terrific with Dr. Nasan Rafati. On the other fronts, we're all still waiting for an announcement on next steps with regard to Gaza and the so-called phase two of the ceasefire deal. It's likely to happen in the coming days, trust me. So that's definitely something to still keep an eye on. And Lebanon as well is also churning in the background. An imminent escalation by Israel against Hezbollah. Seems like it's been put on hold for now. Everyone, I think, both in Israel, across the region, and definitely in Washington, are waiting to see how events in Iran unfold. Nobody really wants to take the attention and bandwidth away from the very real troubles of the Islamic Republic. And you see that too in the overall pretty careful way Israeli officials and, well, most but not all government ministers speak about the unfolding situation inside of Iran. So the two real playing fields are really on the streets of Iran and in the White House, to say nothing of in Donald Trump's mind. And with that, let's get to Barak Herskowitz. Hi, Barak. Welcome to the Israel Policy Pod.

Barak: 3:02

Hi, thanks for inviting me. And hello to all of your uh amazing audience. I don't usually do podcasts in English, I do most of them in Hebrew, so I'm I'm thrilled. Thanks.

Neri: 3:14

So uh I know you do Hebrew podcasts, you have your own podcast, which I want to ask you about. Uh, and this is the reason why, you know, part of the reason why I wanted to start hosting a podcast to bring Israeli voices to the outside world so people really understand what's happening here. And you, Bach, are one of the people that I've known for many years and whose opinion I respect. And I wanted to talk about your history with the Likud Party, with uh I think at least 12 years, isn't it? I want to say probably 15.

Barak: 3:43

Yeah, maybe 15.

Neri: 3:45

15, 14, 15 years. Yeah. We're gonna get into our history too. Uh, but you have a past basically on the Israeli right, and so I thought it'd be very interesting to get into that side of the aisle, uh, especially for our many listeners. Um, and we're gonna do something a bit different. We're gonna start with your personal and professional history, Barak, and then we're gonna work backwards. And after that, we're gonna get to current events, and I'm gonna pick your brain about what to expect in in 2026, this uh election year in Israel. But first off, Barak, explain to us these days what you do. So I see you on channel 12, 13. You have a podcast called uh Unpopular Opinion, da lo popularit, uh in Hebrew. Uh explain to us, you know, what what's your deal? What do you do?

Barak: 4:30

So I briefly I come from uh from at least 15 years of working in politics and policy. Uh we'll dive into it later on, I think. Uh, but I worked in uh the prime minister's office, and then I was before that, I was uh an advisor and spokesperson to the mayor of Jerusalem, Nir Bakat. And that's right. I had my my own consulting firm and I worked with many politicians and NGOs and think tanks in Israel. So I come from this uh ecosystem, and uh even though I had a few years of working in high-tech, by the way, if you have Israeli listeners who are in politics or policy or NGOs or go work in high-tech. It's an amazing, amazing journey. So many different types of uh cereal and and and candies and great everything is is very is very fun.

Neri: 5:24

As they say in Israel, uh name, conditions, good conditions.

Barak: 5:30

Great conditions. But nowadays I I basically I try to be a voice to some of the more audacious and bold and and and new ideas that I think are very vital and relevant for the future of Israel. You know, Israel is is at a very pivotal moment, very pivotal point, with enormous threats that we can we can uh we can talk about the decline of legitimacy worldwide to the existence of Israel, which many of your listeners probably probably feel. Um internal discord and distrust. It's not something unique to Israel. This is something that uh many societies experience, but also there are huge opportunities. Uh Israel obviously demonstrated regional superiority in this war, and very we have unique competitive advantages in high-tech and in different sectors. And I think something uh that is very unique to Israel, and we realized it over the past two years during the war is how much the Israeli society is strong and creative and vibrant and democratic. You know, throughout this very, very hard war, and before that, uh we had uh uh political unrest. The Israeli society demonstrated huge strengths, and and people, you know, people went into the fire to save other Israelis from the hands of the terrorists. And people worked throughout this war and and created, and we saw, you know, it's amazing, we saw uh a huge exits of Israeli startups during the war. You know, you would you would imagine that the war would shut down the Israeli uh economy and society and and the high-tech sector, but no, people just kept moving forward and create. And and I think we have huge threats, but huge opportunities, and it's a very good time to think to revisit uh uh the Israeli way of way of life and Israeli politics and Israeli politics and policy. And I and I try and I try to uh bring with my podcast, and I perform in the in the news uh twice or three times a week. So I try to bring my unique voice and unique ideas and to break the known paradigms and to make people think different on on how we live here and uh and and be open to new ideas. And I think uh I think it will work eventually.

Neri: 8:17

So I'm optimistic. It definitely is an optimistic uh beginning to the conversation, which uh we we love nothing more than optimism uh here on this podcast, usually talking about um you know military affairs and politics and uh and the like.

Barak: 8:32

But it is it is interesting, you know, your on purpose your podcast is called unpopular opinion because you do try to kind of come at it different policy issues from a different perspective, uh and especially it should have been called unpopulist opinion because some of the opinions I bring are you know are not that crazy and not that unpopular, but uh I try to break the mechanism, the the Israeli discourse mechanism, that everything you say comes from the perspective of a political camp. So it's either you're against Netanyahu or pro-netanyao, and this would dictate what you think about different things, about economy, about uh uh even about infrastructure and public transportation. Everything comes from the part it depends on the on the on the political affiliation you have. And I try to bring in guests and myself and have a different discourse that uh breaks these paradigms, breaks these uh uh affiliations, and think about how can we build the the the country from I think we had a very low moment. Uh uh so how to build the rebuild the country uh and not to be fenced by by these uh limitations, by these uh political camps. Oftentimes it works, you know. Sometimes I brought in people who talked about, again, public transportation or the welfare state or you know, different things and how to build the government, the cut, the policy, the cut, the country uh uh with new you know, with new ideas. And I think it works. And I try to be unpopulist. Uh it's sometimes it's also unpopular opinions, but uh usually it's unpopulist. Uh but I'm very, very proud of uh of what I do there and also what I do with the media because you know I just I'll give you a tiny example, okay? Two weeks ago or three weeks ago, I was on TV and there was a discussion about the shutdown of Galeitza, the uh military radio. Israel army radio. There is an army-owned radio in Israel. And I am very pro closing this uh this uh uh this radio, not because it costs much. It does, it's it's not a very it's not a very expensive uh unit in the army. I just thought and I uh and I have thought for many years that it's not wise for the army to be involved in uh in political affairs and to air uh news and and and you know uh current issues. I think it's uh unwise for the for the uh army to be tainted with uh with politics and and uh and such uh such issues. And everybody everybody in the in the show in the studio were you know uh extremely, extremely they had one voice. Uh they had to against the closing of the station. It's a c it's a catastrophe. It's the end of all it's the end of democracy if we close the station. And I, you know, I try to be, you know, I try to be genuine and and bring my own my own voice. And you know, the current government, Netanyahu's government, wants to shut down the station. And I'm a very known uh voice against Netanyahu's government, and I talk and I talk and I criticize them often on TV. You do. But sometimes I but sometimes I say yes, they're they're they're right in in this specific thing, they're right. And people sometimes tend to, you know, they take it very, very hard. And but they they would say, and they told me uh live on camera, but how can you say that you're against the the Netanyahu government as well? And I said, you know, it's uh I don't need to be, I don't need to love them or hate them to uh think clearly about what are my uh my uh um opinions are. And I this is this is the kind of uh discourse that I try to bring, and it I I hope it works most of the time.

Neri: 12:44

Yeah, I mean it looks just by your uh growing profile over the past year or two that it that it is working, there is an audience for it. Um one thing that happened to you uh over the past year or two, and that gave you uh a bit more prominence both here in Israel and outside of Israel is that you uh resigned in protest from TikTok. So you used to work for TikTok, and then you resigned in protest at what well, I'll let you tell the story, but why did you resign from TikTok and why did you become known as the uh Jewish whistleblower at TikTok?

Barak: 13:17

So I wanted to work at TikTok for a long time. And uh when I I was uh I was working with Prime Minister Naftali Bennett, we're we will talk about this experience as well. But uh I told Naftali Bennett that if they gave me an offer, uh and I told them, no, they didn't give me an offer yet, but I know I'm gonna work for them because I have this, I I I have this strong, strong urge to work there. I thought that it's uh it's uh it's an amazing app. And it's they just entered Israel. They just uh opened offices here, and I realized that it's gonna be the next YouTube, next Facebook, and it's it would be a very wise thing for me to come when they just open it. And I gave them I gave them an offer they couldn't resist. I told them uh Facebook and and Google and everyone else, they have people who work with the government, and you don't have anyone because you just opened the office, so I'm the best person for that. And I'm also addicted to TikTok, so I can, you know, I can talk about TikTok very positively uh easily. And within, I think within a week and a half or two, I already had an offer from them. I got through all the um the process. They usually have a very long process. You need to meet with two or three different people and have home assignments and stuff like that. I didn't have all that. They really wanted me. And I started working there six months or seven months after the previous government was formed. And I so I left the government and I went to TikTok. And things went very smoothly and they were great. I was uh their liaison to the government, to the Israeli government and the public sector in Israel. And there were amazing people working there. But then October 7th hit, and I gotta say that the first day uh of of the war, you know, were you here by the way in the country back then? Yeah, I was here. Because it was holidays, so usually often I assume that in the holidays sometimes you you go abroad. Luckily, this time uh I did not miss it.

Neri: 15:20

Um but uh no, I I got back I think uh a week before. A week before a week or a half before.

Barak: 15:27

So you you know it was uh it was a crazy day. It was a very scary day because none of us knew the country was invaded, and none of us knew where it's gonna go and what is really happening. And we just heard about you know horrible massacre, and and there were missiles and and and sirens. And throughout this horrible day, we realized that Hamas um they uh they broadcasted their atrocities. I don't know if you remember on Instagram and X. Following it. You were following, and it happened on TikTok as well. So we had to, as as employees, we uh the employees in Israel, we had to um wake up the entire international team. It was Saturday morning here, Saturday in the middle of the night in the United States or in Europe. We had to wake them up and alarm everyone in the company to make sure that Hamas content is blocked and removed. And to be honest, TikTok did it very, very quickly and thoroughly. And I was very proud to work at TikTok back then. But then a day after or two days after things started to change, and I realized that there is a something I realized that there is a there is a very strong bias against Israel and against Jews already on the platform, and I realized that Israeli content creators are being blocked or shadow banned or you know limited while content about globalizing difada already October 8th, okay? Uh globalized intifada and anti-Semitic content and anti-Israeli content was flourishing, was there was a tsunami, tsunami of anti-Israeli hatred content. And so, you know, I felt uncomfortable, but then the first thing uh that uh raised a red flag for me was that I was sent to the hostage family forum. They already formed their forum very, very early in the in the war. Right. I was sent to them to tell them that all of their content is going to be blocked on TikTok because it's considered too political, all of their campaigns. While I saw very heavily funded campaigns that were pre-approved in the system by pro-Palestinian groups who showed the Palestinian misery and kids walking out of the rubbles of Gaza, saying how starved and bombarded they are. Even before one Israeli soldier stepped foot on a Gaza and soil, I thought it was crazy. I thought what was allowed for Palestinians obviously wasn't allowed for Israelis and it didn't make sense. So things happened and more and more examples like that that I was personally involved with. I was I was sent to birthright. Many of your listeners probably are very much familiar with birthright. They had a uh campaign to bring in volunteers from the United States and Europe to volunteer here in agriculture because all the agriculture foreign workers fled from the country. Right. And that campaign was also blocked by TikTok because it was too political, because it had people had shirts saying Am Israel Chai. So I tried to explain them that I'm Israel Chai, the people of Israel uh I don't know, it's it's it's just a saying, it's just a chant, it's uh it's a Jewish thing, you know. That it's like uh it's like the British chant uh uh keep coming and move on. Okay.

Neri: 19:01

So it's like the people of Israel are alive or live.

Barak: 19:05

Yeah, lives. Yeah, and and I realized that the that there was a very, very severe bias against Israel. So I started, you know, I started exploring this, and I and I became a very vocal uh uh employee within the company about this. So someone told me you need to look at we had an internal system, and like Slack, an internal uh platform for the employees of TikTok, usually meant for work. And someone told me that there is a group inside this platform that is called Palestine Support, and that I need to join it and see what's going on there. And I realized that when I joined, I realized that hundreds and hundreds, maybe more, of employees express very radical uh pro Hamas, pro-houthis. I never imagined that anyone supports the Houthis back then. Uh pro Houtis, pro-Hamas. Hamas anti-Israeli BDS opinions there, and they are proud. They said how much they're they're proud that they can manipulate the content on the on the platform. And I start to check who are these employees, and I realized that I want to be I want to be careful because I I had a very uh great uh lawyer in uh in DC that told me to be careful about this uh these issues. But uh thanks, Mofo. Uh but I want to be careful, but maybe not 100%, but 99% of the of the people there were in trust and safety teams, meaning they were in charge of what goes on the platform and what isn't, what what is being removed. So I realized that very radical groups are in charge of you know the content moderation on TikTok. And that's the core reason of what we're seeing. I put all this in a because I obviously I I tried to, you know, I try to ask, you know, ask the company, open tickets and ask them what can we do about it, and no response. So I wrote uh an internal memorandum. And I was uh, you know, I was uh Israeli uh how do you say uh it was a bit of an Israeli chutzpah. Yeah. And I sent it to the CEO of TikTok, uh, and all the C-level managers report directly to him. And I told them with screenshots and examples and everything, and I told them we have a severe problem in the company. People support Hamas, support the Houthis, and they manipulate the content. And so from that point on, I felt like I was being under investigation in the company and weird things happened. So I had to leave. I didn't talk about it publicly because I was uh I was too afraid of the Chinese and the comments. It's a huge company, it's a very strong company. So I decided to leave because I felt like I don't want to be involved with such a company. Uh I don't want to be, you know, maybe the lie can win on TikTok, but it won't win with me throughout me. And I left and I decided to go home and leave it all behind. Uh but then a few weeks after I realized I got like I got hundreds of phone calls and uh and WhatsApp uh uh messages saying that my memo got to a Senate hearing. So uh there was a hearing in the Senate to the CEO of TikTok, and they mentioned what I wrote. They mentioned what I my my uh my story, and that changed my perception as well because I realized that it's an opportunity for me to bring this story to the public and and and because it's not only TikTok, obviously, it's it's a much wider thing. And I made a mistake. My first interview about that was with the New York Times. Uh I must say that the it didn't go out the way that I wanted to, but I was I talked about it in in on different uh media outlets, Telegraph and Fox News and then I said others. And that basically made people approach me. So, like other employees of TikTok, X, uh uh other companies and other scholars and and this decision makers, uh senators, uh, whatever from all over the world started approaching me and told me how they see not only TikTok and not only the Israeli story, but the threat of uh social media being manipulated by hostile powers that try to erode the or harm democratic societies and how they use it, you know, because I I always say that social media is an amazing thing. It's like it's like uh an airplane. An airplane can bring you from A to Z in a very efficient way. Yeah. And it's in a great, it's a it's a great uh it's a great tool. But if it's being hijacked by terrorists, obviously it's a it's it's a weapon. It's dangerous, it's a dangerous weapon. So same with social media. And I I realized I I I started to connect different parts of the puzzle and realize that it's a much bigger issue of countries like uh Qatar and Russia and China that uh invest a lot of money and efforts in manipulate those uh social media platforms against the West and spread extremism and and social discord and and uh conspiracies. And it's something that I've been uh studying and and uh being uh involved with recently in the past two years. I go once every few months, I go on a speaking tour in America and and other places, uh sharing my personal story, but also the bigger story of how Qatar and and Iran and and and Russia and China uh uh operate these uh weapons. And it's a great uh it's a great opportunity, it's a great thing.

Neri: 25:14

It's uh one of the biggest stories of our day, uh, because it impacts literally everyone. Um I think we could spend an hour just on this issue, but I want to move ahead. Days. Yeah, days. I mean on podcasts, you know. I guess if we were like Joe Rogan, we'd go for five hours, but uh nobody nobody wants to hear us for five hours.

Barak: 25:32

But I would say that if if it interests some of the some of the listeners, feel free to to write me. Feel free to approach because I uh I go abroad very often to talk about it with think tanks and organizations and Jewish communities. And I I'm always happy and open to learn about new information that I wasn't aware of and also to share my story. So talk to me.

Neri: 25:56

Yeah, reach out to Barak. Um, he is uh available. But Barak, I wanted to continue with uh your journey moving backwards, your time working in the Prime Minister's office for Naftali Bennett. So he was prime minister in 2021-2022 in the uh uh unfortunately short-lived uh government of change, as it was called, uh, when Netanyahu was uh opposition, back in opposition. It it happened, it can happen. Uh I'm curious, what was your experience like working in government at the Prime Minister's office for Bennett as Prime Minister?

Barak: 26:28

It's funny, we're doing it like the uh Seinfeld episode in reverse.

Neri: 26:35

Yeah, where they go to a wedding in India, yeah, or like uh Benjamin Button. So it's you know, your life moving backwards.

Barak: 26:42

I was uh the campaign manager for Naftali Bennett when he ran for office, uh, which is uh an amazing experience uh that we can uh elaborate on if you want. Uh but then right after he was appointed to be prime minister, it was during COVID, it was during the pandemic, and the government they knew that they needed to manage properly the way they uh approach the public with information about the pandemic, uh about restrictions, vaccinations, etc. So there was a lot of information to give to the public and uh handle this issue very uh carefully. And Bennett uh invited me to be the government spokesperson for COVID, basically, which was, I think back then was the only and the most important issue of every government and the Israeli government as well. So I was uh the basically the Israeli government spokesperson for that issue. Um it was a very, very interesting experience because um the previous the government before that, Netanyahu's government, uh it was uh Netanyahu obviously uh is uh you can either like him or dislike him, but uh he has a very strong influence on on the on the public discourse. Um people see him as uh a prime minister, he's been in office for many years. Um and the first part of the pandemic, um people were afraid. People saw what happening, what was happening in in New York, in Italy, in Iran, I don't know if you remember. Uh, and it was very, very scary. Right. So when they had when they had restrictions uh or when they told the people to get vaccinated, people just followed the the instructions and people believed the information that they were given. Um but then you know time has passed a little bit, a few months, and then this new government comes to power. And it's it's a very uh they had the this government had a very weak support within the Israeli public. Obviously, it was uh only half of the half of the seats in the parliament in the coalition heterogenic.

Neri: 29:09

Yeah, it was a wide, wide coalition.

Barak: 29:10

61 in a very good day, I must say.

Neri: 29:12

Yeah, I think well that would that's what undid the coalition.

Barak: 29:16

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I ran very thorough and deep uh studies on the Israeli public and and how to approach the Israeli public with information. And we realized that we need to change approach completely and we need to be much more cooperative with the public and to just give them information by experts and then always emphasize it's your call how to uh how to uh act with this information. We avoided shutdowns and we avoided very harsh uh measures, and we tried to communicate that now you know you have the responsibility to get all this information and do whatever you feel comfortable and right with. And um, I think it was uh was a uh uh a very, very interesting uh phase, very, very interesting journey for me. And to I I I want to tell you something about Naftali Bennett and the government.

Neri: 30:16

Yeah.

Barak: 30:17

I worked before with the with previous governments, and uh Bennett, I gotta say something good about Bennett uh that uh he was very, very professional as a prime minister. So every morning he would open the day with a meeting with all the relevant ministers and uh COs of the ministries. And every day uh they had we all had uh our tasks from yesterday. We need to we needed to report what happened with our tasks. If something is uh is not working right, we had to uh report what's blocked, why is it blocked, what do we need from other, what do we need from other people in the you know in the government to help us uh uh succeed. It felt like a very, very professional uh uh place to work. It's it's very unusual for Israeli governments uh that usually work in total chaos. I think it's uh it's something that Naftali Benet should be very proud of. He has a very, very different approach than Etanyao. I thought that unfortunately it was a very it was a very weak coalition and very uh diverse. So they couldn't agree on almost anything. So uh it it to be honest, it couldn't last for more than one year. I thought it was a miracle that it lasted for a year and a half, a year and three months. I thought it was uh it exceeded my expectations. But I think it was uh it was overall it was a good, it was a very good uh government. Not perfect, not everything was perfect. Uh and uh I think that the decision to uh rely on a coalition that has uh the uh has a has a political party that is affiliated with the this Islamic uh brotherhood, I thought was too radical for Israel back then and also now. I thought it was it came with a cost. Right. But the government itself was was uh was was good, I think.

Neri: 32:19

Yeah, so you're referring to uh the Ram Party led by Mansur Abbas, um you know, Arab-Israeli uh Islamist Party, effectively, that was part of the uh Naftali Ben Yarlapid coalition back in 2021-2022. Um hold that thought because we're gonna get into uh what your expectations are for the coming year and and after election and what may happen, don't worry. I'll just say in terms of that government versus well, other Israeli governments, and we've only had Netanyahu as prime minister since well, we've been we've been doing this professionally, or at least since 2009. The Ben Lapid government was a lot more professional and effective at public outreach and media strategy, especially vis-a-figure. Oh, yeah, definitely the foreign media in the outside world, and it's it's not even close. Um and I've said this before on podcasts.

Barak: 33:10

Look, we we uh there is something there in in these in the uh in the prime minister's office, there is uh a department called Maacha Z Baalumi, which is basically the national uh public diplomacy.

Neri: 33:24

Public diplomacy directorate.

Barak: 33:25

Whatever, yeah, directorate. Um this was empty for I mean, there were people working there, but when I when I went there physically the first time, people were were surprised to see that anyone enters the the hallway. So they were like, why is anyone here? Uh people f forget about this place, forgot about these people. And um one of the most important things that we've done, I knew that I want to work, I want to uh move on to high work in high-tech, specifically in uh TikTok.

Neri: 33:59

Just for just for the the candy and the free free cereal and the food, right?

Barak: 34:03

Of course, yeah, of course, for the fierce free cereal. By the way, in in the prime minister's office, I don't know if you know, there's no espresso machine. There's all only um instant coffee. Is that right? Only instant coffee, yeah. It's very poor conditions, to be honest.

Neri: 34:18

I mean, it's a poor building, it needs to be redone, but that's a whole other It's to be, yeah, of course, tort turned down.

Barak: 34:24

And I think that one of the the first thing we've done was to uh was to revital re revitalize this this place, to bring in, to attract talent, very, very talented people and uh spoke and spokespersons in different languages and uh media managers. So it was very important for us not only to attract the right people, the right talent, but also to make sure that all of the right, all of the all the rest of the ministries they understand that in time of crisis like uh wars, uh pandemic, etc., everything is being managed by this this office. So it's not that every branch or minister or ministry talks what they want and give and give whatever information they want to the public. It all it all has to go through uh the prime minister's office whenever it's uh in time of crisis. The first few times that I had to fight with the ministers and their spokespeople was was not easy. I had to tell them that it's uh uh that they need to change their and I had to explain to them why why is it important that they need to be coordinated with uh with with the government. But they did, and and they they understood the importance of being uh well coordinated, and they understood the benefit of being of operating according to data and and information and and studies, and I think it was a very refreshing, it was a very refreshing uh experience because usually the Israeli governments are very, as I said, they they're very chaotic. People are usually tend to step on each other's foot, leak uh conversations all the time, and for one year it was a bit different.

Neri: 36:17

Yeah, for one year the government on the whole worked fairly well. I think the coalition in the Knesset was a different matter, but the government government itself and the ministers uh from what I can recall worked were quite well. And and like I said, uh night and day different in terms of the outreach and the messaging from the prime minister's office, and especially you know, every Israeli government talks a lot, maybe too much, with the Israeli media. Uh, but under Netanyahu, I don't think they this goes back even before the war. Uh not enough actual outreach to to the foreign press. They just couldn't couldn't care less. And under Bennett and also Lapita was it was very different.

Speaker: 36:57

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Neri: 38:06

You were my expert inside the Likud, and we used to meet for coffees down in uh on Bengalon Boulevard uh in central Tel Aviv, and you used to very patiently sit and explain how the Likud works, the different factions, the central committee, uh, because you were an official member and an active member of the Likud Party back then. Yeah. And yet now you you are no longer that. And like you said, you uh you went and worked for Naftali Bennett and support supported Naftali Bennett, I assume, and also are critical of this Netanyahu government. So what happened between you and the Likud party? Did did the party leave you or did you leave the party?

Barak: 38:47

So you're right. I was I wasn't just uh uh a member of the political party, I was uh also very active in it, and I established two different uh caucuses, two different bodies within the within the party. One one, I was one of the co-founders, but I wasn't uh I wasn't the main founder. It was uh the uh Pride in Likud group, LGBT, Likud LGBT group, which was um I would say a very brave and a very uh interesting uh thing to do because uh back then, and I assume it's not only in Israel, uh the idea that the right wing and LGBT groups can go together was was very weird, was very odd. But we knew that there are many LGBTQ people in Israel that are right wingers, and it would be very, very important to uh give them a political home and also to open up the uh Israeli right wing parties to the to the LGBT issue and to build bridges between these two worlds and make Them see each other. I thought it was very, very important and very crucial both for LGBT rights in Israel and for the right wing parties. And especially for the people who felt in their hearts that they are right wing in the sense of they are economically liberal and they are pro-free markets. And in security-wise, there are more uh there are more right-wingers, but also there are LGBTQ, and they feel like gay rights and human rights is something very crucial for them. I thought it would be very, very important to give them this uh this place. And the second and the most uh the more uh the more important uh group that I established was uh it was called Manof. Uh we tried to um I recruited people into Likud, and we tried to strengthen classic liberalism within Likud, meaning uh free markets, separation of church and state, you know, uh personal freedoms. I thought it was a great success in the beginning. Uh I thought that the Likud back then was like an open platform, very open-minded, okay, very open-minded people, very moderate, and you could just come in with good ideas as long as you are uh uh genuinely within the right-wing uh sphere, and you could shape policies, shape the discourse within the party. It was also, I gotta say, I thought that the net the first Netanyahu governments between 2009, more or less until 2016-17, uh they were good governments. Uh they uh they promoted the very uh huge reforms like opening the seaports to competition and opening uh the open-air reform that brought in many new airlines and and you know, free markets in the airline industry. They reduced taxation uh uh in in a very smart and wise way. And they've done many things that I I supported and I thought was good. By the way, sometimes uh even when it was hard moves because it was uh it required some uh very harsh uh uh clashes with uh you know with the unions and with monopolies, etc. But then around 1617-ish, I realized that Netanyahu takes Telikud and the governments to a whole different path. And from that point on, I thought that he was he decided to avoid touching any hard problem or any crucial uh challenge that Israel has and just cover it all up with the with the PR. The best example I think is Hamas. We all realize that Hamas is growing stronger, and that's approximately when uh Netanyahu decided to bring in the Qatari money uh in hope that it would stabilize Hamas and buy a few years of quiet uh instead of instead of doing what he promised. Dealing with the dealing with the problem. Yeah, dealing with the problem and and eliminate Hamas. And so that there was but uh every f every few, every two or three years, uh he went on uh on a uh an offensive against Hamas. It was very limited. And then when it ended after 20 days or 30 days, um he celebrated publicly and said that uh they're deterred.

Neri: 43:48

And we took them back 30 years.

Barak: 43:51

We took them back 30 years, and they would never, you know, they would never think to mess with us again. So I realized that uh that Netanyahu is running away from crucial problems and running away from doing the right things, the the hard things, and covering it all with PR. And that's uh and that's where I started to be more vocal within the party uh against these policies. But it changed By the way. Yeah.

Neri: 44:17

Balak, was it just on say Hamas-Gaza security issues, or were there other policy differences?

Barak: 44:23

Economic issues and other many, many other issues as well. You know, every 1st of September, the teachers' unions, they threat to uh to uh strike to go on a strike. Yeah, the beginning of the school year. The beginning of the school year. Now, the the education in Israel is declining rapidly and and dramatically from year to year, even though the budget is growing it more than doubled within a few years. Uh so obviously something bad happened there. So something, obviously, the the uh the resources are not allocated correctly, something is not managed right. We all knew that he needs to that he needs to promote very hard reforms on giving schools more uh autonomy and change the way that teachers are hired, uh, but the unions were very much against. So every year on the 1st of September, they would write a huge check to the unions, to the uh more uh um to the to the teachers that are uh many years in the system, and the unions would cancel the strike. And it's just an example of how I realized that he would prefer to give protection money or to give to give out money uh just to avoid any hard decisions. Right. In 2000, the the what happened is I went with uh with a very good friend of mine that later on became uh uh deputy minister Aby Kala. He was uh uh the leader of uh of a of a movement that uh for for for small businesses in Israel. And I went with him uh when I was uh liquid member, I went with him to meet with Netanyahu. I had I opened the door with Netanyahu uh for him. It was uh in the beginning of the pandemic, and uh we came with a list of ideas of things that Netanyahu could do for small businesses uh that didn't require legislation. So he could just do it as a prime minister and with his government. And back then he told us, you vote for me, because it was before elections, you vote for me, and then, oh, then I will do uh those things that you uh that you uh require, that you asked for. And we asked them, but why won't you do it now? Why won't you just do out of these 10 things, five of these things, and then we will vote for you. Obviously, it's okay. Um, but then I realized it it was a moment like I felt like it was a wizard of oz. The curtain opens, and then I see a PR specialist that doesn't want to do anything hard, but just to cover everything with PR. That's how I felt. And that's when I decided to leave Liquid.

Neri: 47:08

Very interesting. Uh and by the way, you know, in the beginning and during the pandemic, small businesses were were getting crushed because everything was shut down. Yeah, I mean, it was not uh not a small issue here or anywhere around the world.

Barak: 47:20

Not a small issue. That was the the the straw that break that broke my my my my back. And um I knew Naftali Bennett a little bit, but I never you know I never had any you know any connection with him. And then we met somewhere, and this meeting was love at first sight. So it was, you know, all these uh Christmas movies with you know that when you see the, you know, love actually in the air. Yeah, love actually. So uh I we saw eye to eye on so many issues, and and I agreed with so many things he said, and he agreed with so many things that I claimed. And I came after 10 or 11 years of being uh an activist in Likud and being I was very disappointed by Netanyahu and the Likud back then. Um so it was just it was just meant to be this meeting. And then that that night he offered me, say asked me if I want to be his campaign manager, and I said yes, and and that's when I started working with him. I I didn't know him before then, but it was uh on a basis of uh of a very, very successful meeting uh when we had a very deep conversation and we saw eye to eye on so many issues.

Neri: 48:36

Amazing. Uh we'll get we'll get to Naftali Bennett in just a second, but I'm curious as a former Likud member, what you think of the party these days. Uh and and I think it's very unfortunate.

Barak: 48:48

I think the Likud has become um a very populist party. It's uh it it reminds a little bit of the uh look, uh Likud still in the polls, 25 mandates, which is about 21, 20% of the voters in Israel, they say that they would vote for Likud. These are uh the uh it's the backbone of the Israeli society. These are the people who send their kids to the army, these are the people who are small business owners and people who work in the government and and and people who are in the IDF. And these are the best people we have in the country, okay? So the people who vote Likud, and we can talk about why they vote Likud, these are the best people in this country, okay? And I know and I know many of them because I was so much involved with this uh with this party. Um but I think the the party itself became uh unfortunately a Peronist. A Peronist uh party like their own in Argentina. In uh in Argentina. Okay. It uh serves only the good of one specific leader without acknowledging any of his flaws or any of his mistakes. You know, I say that people make mistakes. I made mistakes in the in the past. I will do mistakes in the in the future. Nereen, I don't know if you have done mistakes in your life. Never never, of course. But people do mistakes, and uh uh it's impossible to even discuss about Netanyahu's mistakes there. Uh there there are no when I was active in Likou, there were different camps, the political camps within the party, different political affiliations. It was uh it was a constant battle between powers and ideas and and and and and fractions. And it was it was it was very it was very uh it was very healthy for for a political party, and now we don't have this anymore. And it became very populist in the sense of uh um fighting against the elites. That's what drives many of the many of the members of Knesset there. And also, and I think that's the most unfortunate thing, is that they are now promoting, actively promoting and actively supporting conspiracy theories, very radical conspiracy theories, just in order to remove to shift uh fire from the from from Netanyahu and the government, but they would say and they would promote anything from uh senior IDF people operating together with Hamas, planning this together with Hamas. Traders from within. These are things that I you know I think that are you know, it's it's it's beyond it's beyond it's beyond horrible. It's something that we cannot accept. And it's very I think it's very unfortunate. And I think uh this is obviously, you know, when I was in Likud, when I was uh most ac more active in Likud, I would always hear these uh people who were ex-Likudniks would say, this is not the uh the party that I know anymore. Obviously, and and it's uh it's it's a cliche, it became a cliche. Um but I really think that after many years of supporting Likud and promoting Likud and making sure that everyone uh around me vote liquud, I think that even though the liquid voters and many of the activists are the best people in the country, in this country, the mechanism itself became very corrupt, very populist, and uh and the worst thing is that they promote uh these uh these host very hostile, very uh toxic uh discourse. And I think it's it's very bad for uh for the camp for the country.

Neri: 52:41

Absolutely bad for the country, because uh it's everyone that disagrees with um the supreme leader of the party and the country, prime minister, uh is immediately attacked.

Barak: 52:52

And and I gotta say, it's I I don't think Netanyahu is a villain. I don't think he is uh I don't think he's in his core a bad person. I think he's done great things for the country, both as uh obviously as uh as a commander in the IDF and later on as a as a politician and in the UN. He has so many things to be proud of that he contributed to this country and to Zionism and to the Jewish world. But I think these late few years, um it shows that uh the price of his leadership are are you know they exceed the the the benefits.

Neri: 53:33

Yeah, we may disagree on on the Netanyahu issue, but uh I'm not I'm not in, you know, I don't know how history will judge him. Uh let's put it that way. I don't know, you know, the longest serving prime minister in Israel, that's that's a fact. Um, but other than that, uh let's say it's an open question.

Barak: 53:49

Uh just you know, just from the fact that he was the longest serving, uh, it it means that it can't be that all the things he's done was was bad. Okay, some some things he's done that were great. Uh uh just from being there for so many years. But I think that nowadays he's he's being uh he needs he needs to he needs to go away, he needs to retire and and and just leave this uh political system alone.

Neri: 54:13

And go make money, but it doesn't seem like he is wanting to go and and retire. Um so I wanted to get into current events, Barak. I'm gonna do it uh rapid fire. So Okay, wow first question. I mean, you know, look, we could go another hour just on on Netanyahu Likud and you know uh the the people who he who we purged from the party.

Barak: 54:35

We have two two hours about TikTok you need to do, two hours about Netanyahu. Okay, what else? Okay.

Neri: 54:40

Yeah, yeah, but uh I said, you know, it's like gonna be a Joe Schedule all that. A Joe Rogan episode. Um, question question number one, looking ahead to 2026. This is the the best and worst parlor game in Israel at the moment. When do you think elections will be held this year?

Barak: 54:57

Sometime between June to September. Okay. I mean uh obviously everyone understands that this uh the government is shaky already. And and and you know it will it will probably the around May, June. That's that's pretty much the the window for elections.

Neri: 55:20

Yeah, my money is on May, maybe bleeding into June, but uh but soon, I think. Um not not the fall. Uh okay. Second question. Uh back to Naftali Bennett. Um he's leading, well, in terms of non-Netanyahu options, he's leading in the polls. Do you think he will be able to sustain it? Uh, what do you think his steps are in terms of uh remaining the main challenger to Netanyahu and potentially the next prime minister once again?

Barak: 55:47

First, you need to bear in mind that he was already in this position in the past. He was with 24 mandates in the polls in 2000 and 2020, and then he declined rapidly to uh to 10 and from there to seven. And then also it happened to Gans. Gans just a year and a half ago. He was with 40 mandates. Yeah, 40, 30, 40, like the biggest in the country, and then now he's uh below threshold. So um things can change very rapidly.

Neri: 56:18

Below below the threshold. I think I saw a poll.

Barak: 56:20

Below below, yeah.

Neri: 56:20

Two days ago, I think.

Barak: 56:21

Even though he can come back, I think he can come back.

Neri: 56:23

Okay.

Barak: 56:24

I think in the end, there are two things that uh Bennett uh uh needs to bear in mind. One, he would need to be um uh seen as his his uh his party that doesn't exist yet, right? It would have to be seen as uh as an alternative ruling party to the Likud. So it has to be center right, big enough, with great promises, very uh uh uh inspiring. Uh he would need to uh to make sure that other prominent leaders join him, and he needs to create this feeling of you know of people joining him because he's the he's the alternative, uh main alternative party to to Likud. Uh he doesn't have much time to do so. So it's uh it has to be done in the next month or two.

Neri: 57:25

Because why?

Barak: 57:26

Because he needs to because otherwise, otherwise, you know, new actors can come in, or he can go below 20 mandates in the polls, and then it opens it open it reopens the the game uh because he's not that big anymore. He needs to only lose three or four mandates and go down to 18, 17, 19, so it doesn't look like an alternative uh big ruling party likelihood. Gotcha. Uh and then all options are on the table and it's very, very risky for him. But if he you know if he succeeds with that uh and he approaches uh uh elections as uh an alternative ruling party, big party that absorbs other powers and other leaders in, the elections would be are going to be around the issue, the the question of what is the main issue in the public discourse in the last few days. Okay uh what's on the agenda, what's on the public agenda in the last week or two weeks of the elections? If the public agenda, if the things that everyone talks about would be uh the question of who serves this country and who the country serves, okay, Haredi, the the ultra-orthodox and the fact that they don't don't join the army, uh economic questions, cost of living, if that would bother the the electorate, the people, and that would be what people talk about, it's uh it's a it's a very easy win for uh Naftali Bennett because he has uh competitive advantages and uh Netanyahu is very strong with this. But if uh the agenda would be about security issues or geopolitical issues, Netanyahu wins 100%. Okay, because there are there are between five to seven-ish mandates in between that are not sure what camp to vote for. They are not sure whether to vote for Netanyahu and affiliated parties or to the other side. There are seven, six, eight mandates in between. Okay. And uh if the questions if if the if the elections are elections around the question of who can lead better the govern the the come the country uh in security issues, in geopolitical issues, they would go back to Netanyahu not because they believe him or love him. Some some of them you know, they they have very negative feelings towards him. But they they think and they believe, they feel like this is what I know. It's it's it's uh it's the leader I know he's done good in the he's done good in the war, even though the war is on him. Okay. But he's done good ever since uh the after the October 7th uh while the other side the opposition always called to stop the war to uh take a hostage deal to give up to take the hostage deal to give up before before the pager operation before Iran before what has done to Hezbollah before uh uh basically the IDF crashed Hamas before all that they always uh advocated to take the deal and those people in between if that's what on their mind if that's the issue of the of the of the elections they would vote for Netanyahu so both leaders need to try and control the media the public discourse and you know and the agenda uh during these uh these very crucial days before the elections very interesting and issues like the Qatar gate scandal where aides close to Netanyahu took money from Qatar or issues like um well what was the big issue here before October 7th the the attempt to undermine the judicial system the the judicial system is already is is already calculated within the the decision already the people what people think about Netanyahu and and against for Netanyahu etc Qatar is uh I think it's the first time that uh it's a very uh uh threatening uh issue for Netanyahu and I'll tell you why he always said that the feeling that he tries to uh to to give to to his potential voters is that the opposition they work and service the Arabs okay they work with they made coalition with the Arabs they uh feel they uh they the the extreme left wing are always very pro-Arab pro-Palestinian even though the October 7th um they're traitors as we said right they're traitors they work with Hamas etc etc the fact that his immediate environment was is tainted with working with not not just Arabs the worst country other than Iran to Israel I think it harms him very very much he he would try to minimize this and I I think I would say that uh for the opposition it would be very wise to just emphasize continue continue continue to tackle this issue over and over again this issue and the Kharedi issue these are two issues that they need to focus over over over again. Yeah and we've seen Bennett do that over the past two weeks very very strongly on this issue you know I gotta say that that from my experience as a as a campaign manager for Bennett uh he wasn't very uh it wasn't very strategic when I worked with him because there was a strategy that was uh obviously we we had you know the best American strategists and and pollsters and everything and you know we spent a lot of money on that and there were very uh smart strategies that we all all all we had is to follow them and Bennett was uh he worked from his guts and he didn't follow the strategies and when whenever he didn't follow the strategies it harmed him in the in the in the ballout uh but now I think he comes in a very very different uh approach uh he sticks with the with the with the right uh strategy with the right strategic messaging and he's very he's like laser focused on them and it's uh it's a very interesting change from the old Bennett that I have known he's uh maybe learning from his past mistakes including uh maybe to pick a better list of uh partners that are gonna enter his his party which which undid him last time Bahak we're we're over time so final question to you as a both a a Bennett supporter and uh a former advisor to Bennett if the opposition or the anti-Netanyahu or anti-government uh parties don't get a majority outright 61 seats without the Arab parties uh or at least the Rom Party um after election day whenever it happens would would you prefer Bennett to go and sit under Netanyahu in that kind of government or would you prefer to them you know repeating the experiment of 2021 where you have a a very broad coalition with the support of at least one of the Arab parties likely Ram Party?

Neri: 1:04:45

What would you what would you prefer?

Barak: 1:04:47

I don't think the Israel well first it's very it's it it depends very much on what uh will Ram party uh will look like because if uh if they would uh you know in the beginning of the war they expressed uh some ideas that we uh uh Jews in Israel can't live with okay uh for example he their leader refuses to uh to condemn Hamas no Matsurabbas even though yeah he's condemned he's condemned october 7th it can he's condemned uh whatever happened to citizens on both sides okay and you need to you need to uh uh see what he he he left uh an interview outraged uh just recently because they kept asking him by the way left wing left left wing uh interviewer uh asked him yeah but but what do you think but would you condemn Hamas or you don't condemn Hamas what what do you think uh and and he just uh he just he couldn't I think they would have to reform their own uh party dramatically and uh um if if they want to be in the coalition otherwise you know generally speaking I think that the opposition should have gone to Netanyahu long long before and offered him to go into the coalition without the Kharim and without Ben Gvir to replace them if he doesn't accept it he doesn't accept it but if if if you will to change to to change the whole policy of Israel upside down and I think it would also weaken Netanyahu dramatically because first it would it would uh uh break his uh very strong uh uh camp that he formed with his block with his uh with the bloc with his uh with his parties but also as long as Netanyahu is the sole thing that people vote on it's either you're pro-Netanyao or against Netanyahu he has a competitive advantage he has more people if that's the question he has more people that are for him than against him or or a very similar number but if if you take the uh the the heavy weight you put on this on this issue on on his specifically on his uh leadership then he's just one leader of of a party out of many and I think it would weaken him on the long term I think that the uh embargo that the opposition put on him strengthened him and I think in the long in the long run and we see it obviously we see it in the last five last few years and I think in the long run to uh take off the embargo and offering to work with him instead of the Kharim instead of the radical right wing the Bengvir etc I think would weaken Netanyahu would be good for the for the country. I don't know if it's I don't know if it's in the cards I don't know if it's if it's possible there there's too much bad blood and there's too much ego there. And I I assume that if that's uh if that's the case if both sides won't have uh a majority without the Arabs we will just go over and over again to uh elections uh again and again uh but I think uh that would be that could have been a um a more a more wise approach right if Netanyahu agrees which he hasn't in the past but also he may not have a choice because uh even according to the polls he has easily got the offer he never got the offer he never got the offer he only uh had guns right entering the coalition twice but it was uh once in the beginning of COVID and once in the beginning of the war right and it was obviously uh uh a chaotic time and Guns entered with no uh uh with no restrictions no demands because it was uh what was seen as good for the can for the country but he never got the offer of uh uh leave the leave the the block and and be be the leader for one last uh term or whatever uh but without the extremist without the Haredium let and worst case he would say no yeah well it may be a scenario uh after election day depending on on what happens um but I had to I had to raise the possibility because it's uh being talked about yeah it's possible yeah yeah Balak you didn't disappoint thank you so much for your time we we went over but just by by uh you know 11 12 minutes so we didn't go for three hours even though we could have so to be continued next time we'll go for three hours thank you very much good to see you thanks again to Brock Herskowitz for his generous time and insights also a special thanks to our producer Jacob Gilman our editor Tracy Levy and our assistant producer Eden Jesselson as always and to all of you who support Israel Policy Forum's work.

Neri: 1:09:38

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